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Dr. Schnusenberg  00:00

Whenever you talk about finance, it bleeds into life, and whenever you talk about life, it bleeds into finance. So it’s really no clear cut way to differentiate life from finance and vice versa. So I’m trying to tie the neuroscience behind those decisions into it. So actually, for my clients, I tell them, This is what is going on in your brain. This is what is happening. And I give them. I call that a brain game report on this is for your issues.

Joey Loss  00:42

Dr Oliver Schnusenberg, thanks for coming on the podcast. Yeah.

Dr. Schnusenberg  00:46

Thank you so much, Joey, for having me, and I’m excited to be here.

Joey Loss  00:48

So for listeners who may not know, you, tell us a little bit about you and how you come to do what you do today. Okay,

Dr. Schnusenberg  00:55

I’ve been at the University of North Florida teaching finance for 21 years now. So I started there in 2003 before that, I was at St Joe’s University in Philly for four years. And well before that, I finished my my PhD. So that was at Florida Atlantic University. So I graduated from there in 1999 so my passion and the course that I’m the most proud of, I guess, would be behavioral finance, which I developed in 2005 and that was actually in the Florida University state university system, the first behavioral finance course. And wow, it’s just I know that. I wouldn’t have known that. The only reason I know that is when you establish a new course, and that course already exists in the state university system. There is a number for it, and there was not a number for that course. So that course did not exist in the state university system at the time, yeah, and so I’ve kind of modified that course over time and been teaching it ever since, and also use that as a as an impetus, I guess, to to become more engaged in the Financial Planning Program at UNF and as you know, we’ve been on the FBE board together, and, you know, together with, with a student, even from our our chapter. So I was leading that program from 2016 to 2019 and established the first FPA chapter. And, yeah, so, so that’s kind of the beginning of where I started and where I’m at at UNF That’s awesome.

Joey Loss  02:32

Yeah, it’s been, it’s been fun to kind of get to know you and see your work leading up to both of our new endeavors and this conversation, it’s kind of fun. Jacksonville is a big, small town in that way. You know, there’s a lot of people here, but at the same time, there’s little pockets where you really get to know people. So it’s been fun getting to know you. Yeah, yeah,

Dr. Schnusenberg  02:51

absolutely. And I was at the I just met at combs, for example, at the financial Therapy Association conference a couple of months ago. And so when I saw your post on LinkedIn that you had started a podcast, and I’m like, oh, Joey knows, so cool. So you’re right. Yeah, it’s really, it’s really a small world. Yeah,

Joey Loss  03:10

I’m a big fan of Ed and all his work. Side note for you know, people love poking fun at the fact that I’m a financial planner with the last name loss. And so I have a Google alert that I don’t know if that makes me a maniac, but I have a Google alert for my name, Joey loss. And then Joseph loss, and you know, I’m responding to media queries all the time, and I want to know if somebody publishes something that I’ve said, all I get is a notification every time St Joseph’s loses. It’s

Dr. Schnusenberg  03:40

hysterical, that is, it’s

Joey Loss  03:41

like 90% of the notifications are lost for St Joseph’s, you know, and I’m like

Dr. Schnusenberg  03:46

90% of the time.

Joey Loss  03:50

Yeah, I have no idea if they’re good at sports, but from my feed, it’s not looking like it.

Dr. Schnusenberg  03:54

I think I don’t follow them, but I think when I was there one year, they made the Sweet 16, so they’re, they’re not horrible, okay, and I think they’re decent at lacrosse, but that’s all I know. I

Joey Loss  04:06

suppose it spans all sports. So I’m just getting spammed with every everything that goes wrong for their sports teams

Dr. Schnusenberg  04:12

and financial losses. Yeah.

Joey Loss  04:16

So anyway, that’s, that’s some fun for everybody. So, so that’s where you started, at UNF, and I know what you’re doing now is quite a bit different. I mean, I know you’re still there, but you’ve got a new endeavor, and I’m curious if you can share a little bit about

Dr. Schnusenberg  04:33

that, sure. So, yeah, so I’ll reach back to behavioral finance. So behavioral finances, you know, it’s always been my my interest. So even when I wrote my dissertation in behavioral finance, it was at that time, really hard to find someone to even be on my dissertation committee, because it was so new at the time. I mean, this was the 90s, so it existed, but it wasn’t really as in society as it is now. So when I wrote. My dissertation, like all the professors were like, I have no idea what this is like. I can’t, I can’t help you. So I finally got a dissertation committee together, and they worked out, and my dissertation was on over and under reactions, which was, you know, one of the first topics, really, in behavioral finance. So behavioral finance, to me, was always, was very exciting from a psychological viewpoint. It was always about, okay, these are the different biases that there are. So here’s, you know, confirmation bias, here’s loss aversion, so here’s how we behave. And every time, you know, even in class, someone said, but why is that? You know, I was kind of like, well, I don’t really, I don’t really know, you know why that is just, it just is, you know? And I can tell you, like, for example, risk aversion. So women tend to be more risk averse than men, but I can’t tell you why that is right. So I was always missing the kind of why. And so I started looking into into different programs. And I found a program at King’s College London that was on applied neuroscience, and I ultimately changed that program to psychology and neuroscience and mental health, and just started exploring the physiological basis for our decision making and why we actually make those decisions. So only to find and my grand goal was to to write something, to translate that into finance, only to find that there’s already a whole literature in neuro finance. It’s small, but it exists. And this is very interesting to me, because it’s almost prohibitive from from a research perspective, and listeners who are in academia will be able to sympathize with this, because as finance departments, we don’t have MRI machines or, you know, physiological measurement. So it almost forces like a collaboration with other professors from other disciplines that have access or with hospitals or, you know, something, in order for that research to really become mainstream, but so that, in turn, led me to financial therapy as a field. So I’m currently, I guess you would say a CFT level one candidate, so I’ve been approved by them to sit for the exam, which I have not done yet. But I’m also a certified life coach, so it got me into this whole area of just understanding how people are thinking about money and how they actually make their decision, and my whole approach to coaching, and I call myself a financial life coach, because I find that whenever you talk about finance, it bleeds into life, And whenever you talk about life, it bleeds into finance. So it’s really no clear cut way to differentiate life from finance and vice versa. And so I’m trying to tie the neuroscience behind those decisions into it. So actually, for my clients, I tell them, This is what is going on in your brain. This is what is happening. And I give them, I call that a brain game report on this is for your issue. Is like, exactly what is happening in your brain. And what that does is, you know, sometimes people feel helpless about like, I don’t know where to go from you. I don’t know why this is happening to me. Like, why am I this way? When you explain them to the into them in a in a neuroscientific way, it objectifies the brain. So it’s like, it’s not you, it’s what’s in your brain that is happening. And so that gives them, that empowers them now they feel like they have agency over that, so they can actually do something about it. You know, it’s like, it’s not my myself, it’s not my my actual innermost self. It’s actually just what’s happening, like, biologically and chemically. To me,

Joey Loss  08:51

that’s amazing. Yeah, I think for, you know, for listeners, it might be easy to assume that most of those behaviors are things like overspending or conflict about money, but some of the the alternative, you know, it’s people who can’t spend the money they’ve saved. There’s something neurologically happening. And I, you know, I’ve talked about that in previous episodes, but I find that to be so interesting, because I think it’s important to acknowledge there’s such a spectrum of behaviors that get in our way of just enjoying life absolutely.

Dr. Schnusenberg  09:19

And that would probably be actually habit forming. So that’s probably in the basal ganglia. So where your habit center is? Because we’re so used throughout our life to just save, save, save, save, that there almost has to be, like, a switch that that says, Okay, now you spend, you know, and, yeah, whoa. Wait a second, I can’t just, you know, make that switch. Like, I’ve been doing this all my life. Like, how do I do that? Right? Yeah, and

Joey Loss  09:44

that’s, and I think, I don’t think I’ve ever seen that be easy for anyone. You know, that particular moment right, where you go from saving to your 401, K, saving to your taxable accounts, saving your emergency fund, and then all of a sudden, you. It’s, you know, especially before Social Security. Let’s say you retire at 62 all of a sudden it’s time to spend that money, and you see 100,000 go out the door a year. That feels pretty different,

Dr. Schnusenberg  10:10

yeah. And more basic than that, like your total, your total wealth, is now going down, not up, right? Yeah. That just feels weird, right? So, yeah, yeah, totally. Even for even for my wife, Linda, and me, it’s, we don’t have any kids, so it’s just us. I mean, there’s, you know, no one that we have to we want to, but there’s no one that we have to leave money for. But even for us, as we approach retirement, it’s kind of like, okay, we want to kind of maintain our principle, but ultimately, you’re like, Why? Why do we want to maintain our principle? Yeah, we really don’t have to. Yeah.

Joey Loss  10:49

It just feels good, because it feels like, in a way, it’s still earning, right? It’s like, I’m spending what I earn, if it’s income from the portfolio one way or another,

Dr. Schnusenberg  10:56

right? Exactly, yeah. It’s really, it’s really, yeah. That’s very true.

Joey Loss  11:01

So that’s fascinating. I mean, all of that surrounds the work you’re doing. So can you tell us a little bit about that entity and more of what your relationships look like with your clients?

Dr. Schnusenberg  11:10

Yes, absolutely. So the company that I founded is called equilibria evolution. I’ll give you a little bit of a background on the name. So our brains. Like, in the 90s, we thought that, you know, whatever, our brains are static, right? Like, so our brains don’t evolve over time, and that has changed in the last couple of decades, like, significantly. So there’s a lot of research now on neuroplasticity and how our brains constantly change. They never stop changing. So it is always how we, you know, modify what is going on in our brain through what we do, right, like we literally, what we do is what our brain will remember. That is what will become automated. And that’s why it’s so important to have habits that are like healthy habits, rather than, you know, just bad habits that will just stick with you, because your brain will just, you know, automatically remember those things, tying that back to the title. So the equilibrium that we have in the brain is constantly evolving, right? It’s not static, so we’re changing. And so that is what the title of my firm means. So it’s the evolving equilibria. So equilibria evolution is constantly changing, and so I do financial life coaching. So my clients are either advisor referrals or their mental health professional referrals. And then I have a few students, and it is just extremely fulfilling work. Give you an example of a student that I’m currently working with that was very afraid to make the jump to another, a whole nother area in her life. And it took a lot of work to actually get to the point where she was willing to jump, because it had to do with her, with previous generations in her family, and once we identified that, it was actually really easy, but, and then she made that, she made that jump, and she’s like, all the way in, like, we don’t, we don’t have to have any sessions anymore. We’re, we’re in contact, but, and it’s just very, very fulfilling to see someone do that. I have a client that is an advisor referral that had a lot of issues with someone that she’s in a relationship with, and had to just reframe the way that she thought about her financial situation. That also took quite a bit of work, because there are, there are other issues at play, but so it is just in general, extremely, extremely fulfilling to to work with people and to see them literally change the trajectory of their life. And it’s it’s also an awesome responsibility to know that when someone comes to you and they want to, you know, change something about the way they do then it’s very impactful. And you know, it’s also a challenge, because you don’t know, I have another client and could not that person is procrastination is a very is very pervasive issue. It’s very interesting, because that person cannot, they can’t get themselves to, they’re very motivated to do it. So, no, they want to do it, but they’re not doing it. So it’s very, you know, you kind of have to dig into, okay, what is like underlying this, why you’re not doing it? And, you know, it’s like, it’s like a puzzle you’re trying to piece together. What is going on, right? Yeah. But also, ultimately, you’re just trying to get to people to really visualize their goal, tie their goal into their values. And you know, that’s kind of the basis, right? And once you have the values and the goals, then it’s just developing an action plan. And then whatever gets in the way is kind of you can deal with. But then you know where you’re going, right? So, yeah,

Joey Loss  15:03

well, you mentioned for that first client that there’s a process of figuring out what it was that was getting in the way, and I think that can be a really hard thing, because I imagine for many people, there’s an element of denial, right? People just kind of feel like they are where they are, and there’s all different versions of it, right? There’s a sense of internal shame, like I just, I should be doing this. I don’t know why I can’t do it, right? And there’s like, a I’m just gonna white knuckle it until I figured out type thing. But in reality, there might be, as you pointed to, in that case, generations of learned behaviors that have been turned into habits that are deep, deep in the soul of this person, and that’s influencing the behavior. And unless we look at those things and find some way to talk about them and put them on the shelf, it’s going to be hard to move forward. Can you tell me a little bit about that process of realizing what it is that’s getting in the way? I think listeners might find that valuable, if they feel like everything that isn’t going well for them is just their own fault right now today. Yeah, so there’s,

Dr. Schnusenberg  16:03

there’s, there’s so much in what you just said. So, so we used to think that basically all our our DNA was coding, right, like was determining, you know, just the way we look, etc. And so there’s, again, this is fairly new in neuroscience, there’s now an area of epigenetics. What we now know is that about 98% of our DNA is non coding, so 98% of our DNA can be changed. So we can actually change our DNA, and that area of research is called epigenetics. So there’s an interesting stream of that research that goes into inter intergenerational trauma, which is kind of what you were alluding to. So, you know, there’s, there’s fascinating studies. There’s literally, if something happened in your family, like three, four generations ago, you know, that is in your genes somewhere, because that is passed down through the genes, you know, because it affected the genes of your ancestors. And now, of course, you can, you know, bring that into all kinds of other issues, if you think about, you know, minorities, how it affects them, right? And, you know, in today’s world, so just being aware of that. So with this particular client, there’s two very important areas for in coaching and financial therapy, and one is active listening. So when you you have to listen without we all like to talk, and I really like to talk. So that is probably, you know, an area where I have to spend a lot of effort. So I figured out very early on that when I do sessions, I can’t do more than two, Max three sessions a day, because they’re extremely, extremely exhausting, because you have to, you know, you look like you’re just sitting there, but you actually you have to pay attention to body language. You have to pay attention to what is being said, but more importantly, you also have to pay attention to what is not being said. So you have to kind of listen between the words. And, you know, one thing I find from client to client that is very strong is implicit assumptions. When someone says, Well, because this happened this, that means this. And it’s, you know, that’s often not the case. It’s like, well, why? Why would you think that? And when you ask that question, then it’s like, well, I don’t really know why. I think it’s just, I’m just assuming. It’s like, okay, but why are you what’s behind that? What are you assuming? So one area is listening, and then the other is, you know, asking the right questions, and the questions should not be. They should not be, I’m going to say too leading. But they should be very open. They shouldn’t be yes or no questions. And actually, when I went through my life coach training, one of the exercises we had to submit, they were really hard on grading that we had to, like, submit questions, and they just did not allow any yes or no questions, like no question that you can answer yes or no to so it’s always, you know, with the with the purpose of getting, getting the person to think right. And so what happened with this client is that they were stuck in a situation and they felt like, well, I need to do this because, you know, I need to provide right. And you know, previous generations have not always been able to provide for for her family. So and then we got to a point where, well, where do you want to go? Like, what is your goal? And the goal was a lot higher than where she currently is. And so it was actually very simple once we got to that point, because then it’s just you have to bridge that gap, right? So it’s like, if you stay here and you don’t want to move from here, you will always be here, like you can’t go here, right? Like it’s impossible if you do that. So and then it was just a matter of figuring out why you wanted to stay there. And that was just a matter of, you know, safety. So I don’t believe. In my coaching. And I don’t think in general, it’s a good idea in like, cookie cutter, there’s maybe a process, but there’s not one way. Like, the conversation is very organic during a coaching session. So it really depends on, you know, what do you want to do, and that that, like, all I need to start a session is a goal. Like, if you give me a goal, that’s all I need. Like, you give me a goal and you say you’re motivated to accomplish it, and you don’t know how, then that’s, that’s perfect, you know, that’s a, that’s a perfect session, because can build on that, right? Yeah,

Joey Loss  20:32

well, that that parallels with the financial planning process, if you compare. I appreciate that you’re saying there’s not a standardized process, because there can’t be and I think that’s true in financial planning in general as well. Because, you know, if you look at these larger kind of financial planning in a box firms, for them to get, as large as they get, they have to standardize things that end up making you that, you know, kind of force advisors into missing things, yeah, because there’s just no way to make room for all the conversations that probably need to happen to come to the best outcomes,

Dr. Schnusenberg  21:05

robo advisors as well. Right? Like,

Joey Loss  21:07

right, right? They’re probably the most extreme example. Yeah,

Dr. Schnusenberg  21:09

yeah, yeah, exactly. Wow. So

Joey Loss  21:12

as you were explaining that, you know, I’m just thinking about for new couples, right? I mean, let’s imagine a new couple where both have done a pretty good job in one way or another, right? They’ve moved forward. They don’t have tremendous debt, you know, student loan debt or not, I don’t think that counts. Right? People have what they have on that front, but not a lot of consumer debt, generally healthy cash flow. But coming together with finances can be hard, and as you were describing these implicit assumptions, it just kind of struck me that that is one of the biggest things to overcome. How is a couple supposed to, on their own, navigate and discover the implicit assumptions, organize it the way that you’re describing that it sounds like you do with clients, and then find actionable steps that turn effectively emotions into logic that can then be acted upon, you know, and with each other, that’s that’s a lot, and that’s kind of what happens in every new couple, right? Some may not realize they’re starting from a more similar place than most, and that makes it easier, potentially. But for those that are starting from pretty separate sets of implicit assumptions, you know, what? How might you handle a conversation with, with a couple like that?

Dr. Schnusenberg  22:26

Yeah, so, actually, so the one thing that is standardized is I have certain tools that I use. They’re not my tools, but they’re, you know, freely available online, like Brett claunces, you know, money scripts. So I have clients complete the money scripts. But I also developed a tool that is asking both individuals and couples how they communicate with money, if there’s any fears or anxieties or maybe lingering trauma about money that each of them has. So I don’t believe that there’s, you know, again, one way that a couple needs to communicate about finances or a system that they need to have set up. It just needs to work for them, right? And that is a big thing, I think, in financial therapy as well. And going back to the larger, you know, financial financial advisors that maybe are advocating for, well, everyone, you just need to do this. It’s like, okay, but I can’t sleep at night well, but you need to do this, you know. So there’s, there’s two sides to every financial decision, right? Like, one is the money, which is important, obviously, but one is the emotion. And I think we focus way too much on the money, because I can tell you, like, if I told you how I’m invested, you would yell at me, probably, you know, and like any financial planner would yell at me, but it doesn’t matter to me, because I sleep really well at night, you know, I need to achieve, like, my goal. I know what my goal is, and I know how to get there, right? So I don’t care about having more than my goal. I don’t need to, you know, so, but if we focus too much on just the Yeah, I need to have this much money, but I can’t sleep well. And that was with that one client that I talked about exactly the issue. All of a sudden she went from I yeah, I have enough, I’m good. And then someone told her, you’re not, you don’t have nearly enough. And then she was just completely catastrophizing everything, you know, so it was, so it’s really we can’t ignore one or the other. So I think that and the same is true for couple. So they need to communicate with each other in a way that they’re both comfortable. They’re both individually comfortable and comfortable as a couple together, right? So I’ll use, actually, my wife and me as an example. So we have, from the very beginning, Linda and I met when we had both lived alone for 19 years, which is actually funny, like exactly 19 years each of us individually had lived alone. So there’s a deep sense of like independence in both of us, plus. Plus my wife’s from Texas, so that throw that on. So So from the very beginning, so we had a joint account for a while, and it just was not working for us. Like there were two we had too much money in it, and then we just ended up, like, wasting it, basically. And so we figured out very quickly that you know, the way for us to do this is to just keep our finances separate, and so it’s pretty much what we’ve done the entire time we’ve been married. We never fight or argue about money. We know what we have, but we don’t need to discuss like you want to go out buy whatever a Lego set like, I’ll use me as an example. You know, she doesn’t care. I mean, it’s like, it’s your money. You go do whatever, you know. So, but that that process also wouldn’t work for everyone, right? But we also don’t need to, you know, ask each other’s permission, so it works for us. And I think in general, that is true, like whatever you need to understand what the clients are about individually and as a couple, and then design a system that works for them. So if there’s friction around money, you know, what’s the source of the friction? Is it one party, both parties, or, you know, is it just the system that you’ve designed that is not working for you? Like, does the behavior matter? Or is it just the behavior? It doesn’t really, I don’t really I don’t really care about the behavior. It’s just that the way we have the system set up doesn’t tolerate the behavior. It’s like, well, then you need to change the system, you know? So it’s really getting to the root of that. I think,

Joey Loss  26:33

yeah, that’s, I mean, that describes any I’m thinking of, like, business relationships have to operate in a similar sense, right? I mean, if there’s not some sort of predetermined protocol, then it’s just going to be, you know, you’re kind of subject to the emotional whims of the day and finger pointing that, you know, it might be some parts of the year no one cares that you bought a Lego, and then other parts of the year it’s like, why? What the hell you know, what are you doing with that Lego? And, yeah, that’s very interesting. I subscribe to that, that the system has to match the architecture of what you believe and what you’re aiming for and what works for you guys,

Dr. Schnusenberg  27:10

right? And often it’s the same, you know, if it’s the same issue that comes up over and over, right, then it’s really just getting to the source of that issue and maybe reframing that issue or working with that one particular issue. It’s usually not, you know, the whole, the whole relationship doesn’t work financially, right, because then they probably wouldn’t be together in the first place. It’s usually probably just one issue, you know, whatever it may be, I keep spending money on he goes out too much or, you know, she buys too many shoes, or just using examples, but whatever it is, right, like, you know, it’s you need to just drill into that issue and then see, well, is there a way, for example, to still buy the things you want to buy, but buy them differently or more rarely, or buy him from a different place that maybe is, you know, cheaper. I just, I had just had a stupid example come in my head. I don’t know if you saw this. It was a prank on it was all over social media. Payless, Payless shoes. They they opened a store and called it pelesi and present pretended to be like a designer brand. So they invited all these designers to look at their shoes, and they were Payless shoes, so they were, like, 10 to $30 a pair. And, you know, all the designers came in and it’s like, Oh, these are so awesome. I would easily pay like, eight $900 for it,

Dr. Schnusenberg  28:39

you know, so, yeah. So, yeah, it’s

Dr. Schnusenberg  28:44

that was, that was actually really funny. I always play that video in my behavioral finance course. But So there’s ways to, you know, to work with, with whatever is going on, and to just identify, you know, you just need to, like, talk through it and that, I think a lot of people, it’s becoming a lost art, right? Like, actually just having those conversations and, like, reasoning through something, yeah, well,

Joey Loss  29:08

I mean, it can feel like it’s not fun, and if nothing’s burning right now, why? Why invite it? You know, I think that’s where a lot of people are, and true and, and, but the as you describe that, it seems like the big thing is, you know, every one of us has our own unique set of values. Even if we have the same values, we probably prioritize them differently, and that shows up in money. And I think that points back to the we can’t talk about life without talking about money. We can’t talk about money without talking about life. The same is true between money and relationships. And, you know, that’s the work of creating a financial household is, is just figuring out what is most important to us and is effectively non negotiable. How do we create an architecture to protect that so we don’t ever, you know, step on that, and then what are the things? We can negotiate, and how do we separate that from the core picture and make room for us to kind of be our independent selves, expressing our value triage list freely, so that we feel good and and obviously this is a huge freaking issue, because people, I mean, the divorce rate is massive in America, and we quote, financial disputes is one of the top reasons every year. Yeah,

Dr. Schnusenberg  30:24

52% or something. I just saw somewhere that 52% of couples I fight about money. You know, I’m actually surprised. It’s not more than that, but I may be taking that out of context. I just saw that somewhere,

Joey Loss  30:37

yeah. I mean, that sounds right. Every every time I look, it looks like I’ve seen a big range. It depends who’s reporting it, I guess. But it’s always high,

Dr. Schnusenberg  30:46

right? But if you ask a random person on the street, what are your values, like, no one really able to, is able to answer that, right? Yeah. Like, off the top of, well, I don’t know, you know. And it was funny, I have a client that is making major life decisions right now, and I know her values, and I know that one of the decisions is not aligning with her values, and but she was adamant about that decision until she wasn’t. And I because I told her, I don’t think you know how I asked her, How does this align with your values? And, yeah, when I asked her that question, it kind of became like, from then it was like, downhill, because she was realizing, yeah, it doesn’t so, you know, and then you have cognitive dissonance, right? Like, so one of the two has to change. Either your values have to change, or, you know, which is okay, I mean, maybe you misidentified your values. Maybe you really have a different set of values. If that’s what you want to do, you’re drawn to this for a reason, right? Like, so, you know, but, yeah, it’s and that’s why, for a couple it’s always important to have the the money scripts and the way that people think about money. And, you know, if there’s certain fears or anxieties around money, to identify those early, before you even start the conversation with them. So you know, like, what the starting point should be, because if there’s, like, huge differences, you know, if one person in the relationship, you know, grew up, grew up in a fairly affluent household, and it just can, can spend money freely and never had to worry about money, and then another person in the relationship grew up very constrained. And, you know, in poverty, those are going to be completely different mindsets around money, you know? I mean, that’s a recipe for, there’s going to be conflict there. I mean, undoubtedly, there’s going to be conflict, right?

Joey Loss  32:38

Absolutely. And I’ve even seen that within individuals like friends of mine that I’ve talked to, I was trading messages a couple weeks ago with somebody who has had a very successful first 10 years of their career. Great student immediately launched into very big name companies and has done a wonderful job ever since. And this person was mentioning that there’s like almost a physical discomfort with acknowledging that they could spend more than they do, like, significantly more than they do. And it’s because they raised, they were raised in a home that they had money, but they were, you know, they just were very frugal and thoughtful about how they spent. And that became a core value where there’s a there’s like, just intense layer of self judgment if he’s able, if he was to explore beyond that?

Dr. Schnusenberg  33:25

Yeah, there’s actually, it’s funny the way that you phrase that, because so there’s studies around loss aversion, right? So it sounds like for that person, their degree of loss aversion was probably very high. I think the average is around that that loss has hurt us two and a half times more than you know, gains bring us pleasure. So, but for that person, the degree of loss aversion because of whatever you know, its own personal history, is probably much higher than two or two and a half you know. So maybe for for that person, that’s four or five, right? And so there’s studies that actually show that that loss aversion, like is feels like, when you have a loss, it feels like physical pain. And, you know, that’s kind of, I forgot exactly how you phrase that, but

Dr. Schnusenberg  34:11

you kind of, you kind of indicated

Joey Loss  34:14

it was, it was this person’s language really, I was just, yeah, that’s what they you know, it’s, it’s very uncomfortable.

Dr. Schnusenberg  34:21

Yeah, it feels like your arms being broken. I mean, you know that’s, yeah, very, very uncomfortable.

Joey Loss  34:27

Wow. So I So through these topics. I mean, it’s, it feels like we’ve really painted a picture of how inseparable life, relationships and finances are, yeah? And for some listeners, that’s probably a kind of an overwhelming thought, and I imagine they might be thinking, Okay, what the heck do I do about that? Like I’ve been fine, right? My my bills are paid, no one’s knocking on the door. Where do I start if I just want to take a step forward now that I’ve kind of understand that we’re. Relationships across these things. What is a good starting place for me, if I want to kind of level up my financial situation and understanding?

Dr. Schnusenberg  35:10

Okay? So there are several topics there, right? So if you want to again, I will say it depends on what the person’s goal is so if the if the person has a particular financial fear or anxiety that they’re aware of, you know, or they cannot get to a certain place for a particular reason, then I would say, you know, reach out maybe to either a life coach or a financial therapist or, you know, someone that you can work with and, like, it may just be, like, a session or two, right? Like, you may just have to, you know, talk through it and just kind of come up with something. I mean, they’re clients that I’ve had that just required, like, a session. And then it was just to clarify something. Like, you know, why can I not do this? Well, you know, tell me a little more about this. And then as you talk through it, it’s just becoming clear, oh, it’s probably this, and it’s like, oh, yeah, actually, that makes sense. So and then it’s just, you know, following up and seeing if that, but yeah, or it doesn’t even have to be a professional, you know, if it’s just someone in your life that is, like, a good listener that you can talk through things with. But the problem today, I think, is that we don’t really ever slow down, right, like, we don’t ever slow down to have like, real conversations. And when we do slow down, we immediately grab our phone and start, and I include myself in that, right, and start looking at like, random stuff. But we never really just sit and think, you know, I think if we did that, we would actually, you know, probably, in general, need a lot fewer therapists because, you know, a lot of stuff, we can probably just reason through ourselves, right? Like, if we if we let ourselves

Joey Loss  36:48

absolutely but, yeah, I think that’s great. And, you know, it sounds like the identification of goals. And if that feels really hard, then there’s probably a conversation that might be between you and getting there that someone can help with. Yeah,

Dr. Schnusenberg  37:05

I would say, if it’s a recurring issue, or if it’s a goal that you know you’ve had for a while and you just cannot reason through how to accomplish that goal, that would be that, for me, would be a perfect client. Like to have someone you know, they know what they want, but they can’t get there. And it’s just kind of, you know, identifying the reason why you can’t get there. Yeah,

Joey Loss  37:28

oh, that’s very helpful. So, Dr Schneider, we’ve covered a lot. This has been fantastic. I’m so glad you came on for listeners who want to follow up or connect with you, or just kind of read what you write or see what you’re doing. How can they connect with

Dr. Schnusenberg  37:43

you? Yeah, so my website is equilibria, evolution.com, and all my contact information is on there. I offer free half hour, you know, introductory meetings. So just to get to know each other, if anyone is interested, I’m open for business. Awesome.

Joey Loss  38:00

Well, for listeners out as always, I’ll put links in the show notes so you can go straight to his site and and connect to them if, if that feels right to you. Dr schneesenberg, thanks for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it. Joey, thank

Dr. Schnusenberg  38:13

you so much. It was a pleasure being here.

Joey Loss  38:21

Thanks for joining us. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to the show and share the episode with friends or family that may find a conversation helpful or interesting. Show Notes and episode transcripts are available on my website at flow, financial.com/podcast I want to give a special thanks to Bo delicens for the music score and to the podcast man for producing the show, we’ll see you next time.

Disclaimer  38:45

The wealth unplugged podcast is sponsored by flow financial Joey’s Registered Investment Advisory offering Financial Planning and Investment Management services to clients across the United States. The opinions voiced in this material are for general informational purposes only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual security to determine which investments may be appropriate for you. Consult your financial advisor prior to investing. This information is not intended to be a substitute for individualized tax advice. Please consult your tax advisor regarding your specific situation.